[Sandra Perlman Halem]: This is Sandra Perlman Halem. I'm doing an interview on May 3rd at 12:10 in the Alumni Center. Let us begin. Would you give me your name and where you were on May 4th.
[Interviewee]: My name is [name removed to protect privacy] and I was on the Commons on May 4th at the rally.
[Sandra Perlman Halem]: What are the memories you would like to leave?
[Interviewee]: My name is [name removed to protect privacy] and I was a sophomore at Kent State University in May of 1970. The memories I'd like to leave behind were of my experiences over that weekend and of that particular day. I remember driving back from a friend's house Sunday morning and hearing on the radio what had taken place Saturday night with the burning of the ROTC Building and the National Guard on campus. I had been visiting a friend outside of Kent. And I recall driving my '56 VW back onto the University campus area and being surprised to see the army basically in and around Kent. It was rather shocking to see tanks near your university, on the University grounds. I lived off campus at that time at Rose Road Apartments with four other, three other guys. And I remember talking with them that day about going onto campus on Sunday night carrying black flags that we made and attached to long tree branches. And there was a fellow named Bill Stevens, who is no longer with us, that lived in the area, and my roommate and I. The three of us carried these black flags on these tree branches onto campus. And I'll never forget walking passed a dormitory where on the third floor someone had put their speakers out onto the windowsill and Richie Havens' song, "Freedom," was playing, blaring out the dormitory window. We went to the Commons that night in my recollection and gathered to talk about the aspects of having the National Guard on campus. And I recall different speakers coming to the microphone. And I too went to the microphone and called for a nonviolent civil disobedience and suggested we all go to the corner of Main and Water Street. Or was it Main and Lincoln? I believe it was Main and Lincoln Street. And to have a nonviolent sit-down protest in the intersection protesting the National Guard being there on campus. At the time, I was in the School of Music and Speech, a broadcasting major, and I'd worked for WKSU radio and TV2, so I had a press pass that enabled me to go behind the lines, so to speak. And after marching with the students to that intersection, I was able to come up from behind the State Police and the National Guard who were blocking our, well who were near the intersection there. And I was able to go from, make my way around the back and show my press pass to some of the law enforcement people that were there. And was able to wiggle my way up to some of the officials of the National Guard and the State Police and some University, members of the University Administration. I'm not sure who that was, whether it was the Vice President of the University or not. But I was able to overhear the conversations at that time about trying to get the President of the University to come down and speak to the students. And as time went on, we discovered that, everyone discovered that the President of the University was not at home. And that there was then discussion of removing the students from the intersection because they were blocking traffic. And the memory I have of that moment was that there seemed to be a power shift. The control of the situation went from the University officials to the campus and the city and state police to the National Guard. And it was my recollection at that point that the National Guard was now in control of the situation and that their priority for them was to remove the students from the intersection. And I remember being behind the National Guard at the point in time when they dispersed the crowd. And I remember watching Guardsmen chasing students down Lincoln Street and onto campus. And some of us that were in that area running in and around the Guardsmen ran into people's homes that were, doors were open to us because of the teargas that was affecting all of us at that point in time. And I ... Sunday night I think was instrumental in changing people's demeanor and attitude because of what happened with the Guardsmen coming on campus. And there was a seal at that intersection. The seal of the University was on the sidewalk leading, there was an entrance to the campus there. And the campus Kent State University seal was there. And that was sacred ground! You didn't walk across the seal! And to have a National Guard disperse students with fixed bayonets across that seal was shocking and it angered the students. And I think as a result there was a defiance of the marshall law that was in effect that there were to be no rallies held.
So the Monday morning, I believe, word got out, and Sunday night also, word got out at what had happened. And I think as a result of the anger because of the Guard crossing the line, so to speak, that people were willing to defy that particular order not to congregate and not to gather. And so I remember being at an abnormal psychology class at 11:00 on the morning of May 4th. And I remember standing up and mentioning the fact that I thought it was strange that the instructor would, was beginning to hold class without referencing the fact that there was a National Guard member standing at our doorway holding a M-16. And I thought that there should be some discussion of that and frankly if there wasn't that I didn't think that it was worth staying. And I urged everyone in class to come to the rally at noon to, in defiance of the order not to gather. And I mentioned the importance of our right to assemble and that I hoped everyone else would attend as well. And I left that abnormal psychology class with my abnormal psychology book in hand and went to the rally hooking up with my girlfriend who was also a student here.
Once again, I found myself going from the crowd of students and using my press pass and going to the, behind the National Guard that were now assembled in what they call a scrimmage line. And I found myself once again overhearing a conversation at that time with the National Guard as to what they had planned to do. And the discussion was that it was an illegal assembly and the bullhorn came out announcing that to the assembly - that it was an illegal assembly and that they were ordered to disperse. And no one dispersed. And there was a lot of, "One, two, three, four, we don't want your fuckin' war!" being chanted by the crowd. And there was a lot of, "Pigs off campus!" being chanted by the crowd. And there was a lot of, "National Guard off campus!" being chanted by the crowd.
I found myself back on the student side of the line at the moment that they shot teargas canisters into the area where the crowd was assembled. I was angered by it. And I found myself running down the hill picking up one of those canisters and throwing it back at the Guardsmen, along with other people that had done that as well. Two or three of us had run down and thrown the canisters back. The National Guard then began to move up the hill. And the crowd, in a somewhat orderly manner -- but also choking in, and crying out, and suffering the effects of the teargas -- dispersed in pretty much all directions, but mostly up and over the hill on the one side of Taylor Hall. And the Guardsmen continued to move up and over the hill onto a practice football field. At that point in time, they reassembled. And I recall classes must have let out at that point in time, the twelve o'clock class. I guess kids were walking to their next class from the dormitories that were behind the Guardsmen. Tri-Towers was in an area right behind them. And I seemed to remember kids being on all sides of that practice football field, which was fenced in on three sides, or two sides, it might have been. I'm not sure. But the crowd was now dispersed in and around that area onto the parking lot, and up on the hill, and behind Taylor Hall there. And a somewhat chaotic situation.
Some kids started throwing rocks at the Guardsmen who had, some of whom had dropped to one knee and were aiming their rifles at kids that were in the parking lot area. Some of the Guardsmen threw the stones back. People were giving the finger to the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen were giving the finger back to the kids. Then at some point, the Guardsmen began to retreat so to speak back toward the hill behind Taylor Hill and a lot of epitaphs were being thrown their way by the students. And the memory I have is of a somewhat spread out crowd of a few hundred at this point. I think a lot of the kids that had originally been on the Commons had gone in all kinds of different directions and some of them had gone in the classroom buildings, some had gone into dormitories. And the teargas had burned a lot of people's eyes to the point that it was difficult to see. And it was a hot day and rather humid as I recall. But as the Guardsmen ... I had at one point also, this is kind of a strange situation, that I had a red windbreaker on at the time. And when the Guardsmen congregated at that football field, I turned my red jacket inside out, it was gray on the inside. I turned my jacket inside out and I put my book, my abnormal psychology book, in my pants. And at that point, the Guardsmen then - I'm not sure whether they loaded up at that point in time or not - but they seemed to be congregating and discussing things. Like I say, some of the Guardsmen were kneeling and sighting the students with their rifles. But they moved from that area back up to the, across the street that's actually a frontage-type road, or a little service street, that was on the one side of the football field, and then began to move up to that top of the hill. At that point, some of the kids were throwing rocks, there were probably three. Well the closest would have been probably forty yards away, at the point, you know. And like I said, the crowd had somewhat dispersed at that point so they just ... you know a hundred ... [tape ends].
[Sandra Perlman Halem]: Would you just say "continuing".
[Interviewee]: ... continuing. Once the Guardsmen had gathered in the football field and once the students began to be coming out of their dormitories and their classroom buildings - and I think there was probably a 12:15 class a lot of kids were going to, I think, so it was fairly busy in and around that football area, the Tri-Towers dormitories were behind them -- and the Guards then gathered once again in formation in somewhat of a circle, I guess. And then began to go back the same way that they came, headed back toward the hill behind Taylor Hall. And some of the kids were throwing stones. And I remember going up to this one kid who was wearing a cowboy shirt. And he had a fairly good-sized rock with him. It was fairly round, probably a good six inches in diameter, somewhat the size of a softball. And I said, "Hey, let me throw that one. Man, I got a pretty good arm. I used to play softball." And we looked at each other and laughed. And I took the rock from him and I heaved it into the middle of the Guard, who were at that point at the top of the hill. Some ran in line straight from the Guardsmen to the parking lot. I ran across the hill. The Guardsmen began to fire. They turned and started firing. And it went on and on. And for the longest time, it seemed to me. And I saw people hitting the dirt. And I didn't realize at the time that they were being shot. But I hit the dirt thinking, "O.K., O.K.", you know. And all this time I just assumed that they were shooting rubber bullets in the air.
And after what had seemed to me an eternity, and after feeling that the ground moved near me, not knowing at that time that it was probably a bullet, I got up and walked across the hill maybe ten or fifteen yards. And I saw that fellow with that cowboy shirt laying face down in a pool of blood. And I realized that they indeed were using real bullets. And that these kids weren't getting up. And I pretty much went into shock at that point because my girlfriend was there somewhere amongst the crowd in that parking lot. And I found myself going around to the bodies of two of the kids that would eventually die and a bunch of the kids that were injured looking to see if that was her.
And I eventually found her coming out of a dormitory, Prentice Hall, that was right near the parking lot. And I was afraid of what might continue to happen. So I grabbed her and we ran back to the Commons area toward my car, which was at that time parked in front of Moulton Hall where I used to live. And I remember people, students. I saw a fellow that I had gone to high school with, who was a student there. And I said, "Jim! Jim! Man, they've shot a bunch of kids over there!" And I remember somebody in that crowd of students that was in that area saying, "Oh, they deserved it!" And I remember yelling FU at them. And continued on toward my car and saw a bunch of National Guardsmen that were in and around the ROTC Building, this was on the way back. And I remember screaming and yelling at them that they were murderers. And they looked at me like I was crazy because nobody at that time really had any idea what had just occurred.
And I remember getting into my car and racing off and heading back to my dormitory off campus, or my apartment off campus with my girlfriend, who also live in College Towers right off campus. We stopped at the Newman Center. There was a priest outside the Newman Center looking out back toward the parking lot, which was probably, I don't know, a mile away, or three quarters, half a mile. I don't know. I'm not sure. And I remember stopping the car, yelling out at him that, "Father! Father! Pray for, pray for the four kids! They've killed four kids!" And I had no idea at that time that four kids would die or that there were indeed four deaths that day. But I'll never forget yelling that at him. And then we ended going off to our apartments. And frankly I was afraid and I thought I had caused the shooting. I thought that that rock that I had thrown was the rock that had caused the Guard to turn and fire.
So, as a result, the impact of that day, the impact of that day had ... was pretty much caused me to come back to campus and finish out my two years, refusing to go to graduation, constantly reminding people of what had occurred. We would have classes on May 4 in 1971. And I remember commenting to a professor that, "Geez, how can we not reflect on this day and what occurred a year ago." There seemed to be at that time, people were still pretty much in shock. And they wanted just to continue on. And there was a certain amount of denial that really occurred. And I pretty much was afraid the FBI was after me. And I just kept pretty much to myself and left school and pretty much dropped out of society and went and lived in the mountains of Colorado for a number of years. And it was hard for me to ever talk about it. It wasn't for years after that, that I ever really mentioned to anybody that I had thrown a rock that day. And I thought that it might have had something to do with what had occurred. And I pretty much, not that I probably hadn't already started, on my way to becoming an alcoholic but I did nothing but drink for ten years. And my life was pretty much in bad shape as a result of that. And there was no opportunity for any counseling for what really had occurred was post-traumatic shock syndrome. And now I'm aware that that is available to people that have suffered in that way. But it pretty much affected me in the sense that I got myself lost in alcohol and drugs. And pretty much became addicted to anything and everything. And ended up losing my freedom over it. Because eventually you run into, luckily I guess for me, you run into the law. And you know, if you drive under the influence they'll put in jail. And so for me, that was a good thing that eventually happened.
And I still had a difficult time coming back to Kent. And I had resentment in my heart for the University not really taking a proactive stance and building a memorial to the students that were killed that day and establishing a dialog with the students about it. And I remember hearing of the building something on the area near the shootings and I really resented the University for denying and pretty much sitting on their hands as far as doing anything constructive about what had occurred that day. And it wasn't until thirty years later when the University held their first annual symposium on first amendment rights and dissent, was I able to come back. And it's still a very emotional time for me. I've been here for three days and I've yet to be able to gather the strength to go to the site. And I'm hoping that I'll be able to do that.